Kufr-Kafir

[DQ]

What is Kufr ?

Who is a Kaafir ?

Just the meaning of the term Kafir, in the "Walled Off" thread seems to have incited quite a few on the boards.

The absurd proposition by, trying to draw a analogy in the dialogue led me to explain the meaning of Kafir.

That led to a blockade of dialogue and it boiled into rhetoric, with people like P_D taking it in thier tirade to ridicule.

Anyway. lets have that discussion here if you deem necessary.

What is Kufr ?

As far as I know "Not believing in God is Kufr".
Giving God some sort of form is Kufr.
Worshipping God or Mans creation is Kufr.

Who is a Kafir ?
A person who "Denys". A person who does not believe in the omnipresent is a kafir. Broadly defining in simple english "Polytheists and Atheists".

[Kafir urf Kufr]

What do you want to discuss in this thread

Worshipping God or Mans creation is Kufr.

eh?

[Explianer]

What do you want to discuss in this thread

Worshipping God or Mans creation is Kufr.

eh?

Reminds me of a person who argued with me that the word 'kafir' is not derogatory at all.

Just incase you considered Kufr and Kafir derogatory

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Just incase you considered Kufr and Kafir derogatory

Yes it is derogatory. I am a non believer. Atleast I dont believe in god the way you do and I want you to respect my beliefs and not call me names.

[CtrlAltDel]

personally i dont think "Kafir" or "Kufr" are derogatory words...IMO, they are equivalent of words like 'nastik' or 'atheist' in the Islamic sense.

[CtrlAltDel]

I want you to respect my beliefs and not call me names.

thats the problem, not with the words but of how the words are used to divide people into sections. the mindset has to change

[DQ]

Just incase you considered Kufr and Kafir derogatory

Yes it is derogatory. I am a non believer. Atleast I dont believe in god the way you do and I want you to respect my beliefs and not call me names.

Ok lets change languages because MM finds Kafir derogatory.

Its just a common "Urdu / Arabic / Hindi" for heavens sake. Its not a racial abuse / slur neither is it coined in sarcasm. A term widely used in poetry even in Hindu kingdoms.

How does this resort to not respecting your beliefs?

Derogatory from a person like you who at the drop of the hat goes, Islamist-extremist-terrorist. Hmm talk about "Double Standards".

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Yes, I DO MIND being called kufr or kafir for quran has provisions which can be interpreted as support for killing un-believers.

008.017

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

008.039

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

The above two apply when the unbeliever of 'kafir' attacks Islam, allah or a muslim. But quran doesnt specify what exactly an 'attack on Islam' is. Is it like the targeted extermination of Jews of world war II, or an attack on Mecca or a heated arguement on a FH board between a muslim and kufr? It is open to interpretation and different people interpret quran different ways as there is no central authority. This is one reason why terrorrist find justification in killing people - different interpretations.

008.055

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe

Still 'kafir' is not derogatory?

008.056

They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah)

008.057

If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember

This is one reason why, IMO, many hindu temples were destroyed when muslims first invaded India.

008.060

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

I dont know if other religions have similar things to say about non-believers. But even if they did, Hindus, jews and christians donot follow the word of the book unlike muslims as Islam is 'revealed' or 'word of god' and it is the duty of every muslim to follow every word of it and most muslims do.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

The quotes are from:

The Holy Quran
Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

THE ISLAMIC COMPUTING CENTER
73 St. Thomas's Road
London N4 2QJ
United Kingdom
Tel: (071) 359 6233
Fax: (071) 226 2024

[DQ]

The whole Rant that you have picked up from http://www.Qando.net or http://www.bible.ca does not prove why the word "Kafir" is derogatory.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

personally i dont think "Kafir" or "Kufr" are derogatory words...IMO, they are equivalent of words like 'nastik' or 'atheist' in the Islamic sense.

Making 'love' and F u c k i n g: Both describe the same thing, having sex,but no one ever uses the term 'F u c k' to describe sex with wife or gf.

Atheist and unbeliever both may mean the same (actually they dont), but when you call me atheist, it means I dont believe in god. But when u call me unbeliever, it means I dont believe in your particular god, and hence I am wrong. It could also mean that you dont respect me and my god like i respect yours.

[DQ]

The quotes are from:

The Holy Quran
Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

THE ISLAMIC COMPUTING CENTER
73 St. Thomas's Road
London N4 2QJ
United Kingdom
Tel: (071) 359 6233
Fax: (071) 226 2024

Now that you prefer to discuss Quran,

The same chapter also contains this,

The unbelievers planned to imprison, murder or expel you (Muhammad) from your city. They make evil plans but God too plans and God's plans are the best (8:30).

If you consider yourself as a disbeliver, are you one of the above ?

If you are this is how it goes on.

My question to you, you have proudly stated that you are a non beliver, is this one of your attribute?

[quote="Quran"
When Our revelations are recited to them (the unbelievers), they say, "We have heard them. Had we wanted, we could also have composed such statements; they are no more than ancient legends." (8:31)

They also say, "Lord, if this (Quran) is the Truth from you, shower down stones on us from the sky instead of rain or send us a painful punishment" (8:32).

God would not punish them while you were among them nor while they were asking for forgiveness. (8:33)

Why should God not punish them when they hinder people from entering the sacred mosque? They are not its true patrons. Only the righteous ones are its patrons, but most of the pagans do not know (8:34).

Their (unbelievers) prayer at the mosque is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. We shall tell them, "Suffer torment for your disbelief."(8:35)

The disbelievers spend their wealth to turn men away from the way of God. They will continue to spend but it will become a source of regret for them and they will be defeated (because of their evil plans).
[/quote]

Answer the above and we will proceed.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

The whole Rant that you have picked up from http://www.Qando.net or http://www.bible.ca does not prove why the word "Kafir" is derogatory.

Read before you comment. If you cant read and cant indulge in a healthy debate, stay away. Dont start such threads in the first place.
I gave you the source of my quotes, refute them if you can. If you cant, accept the fact and keep quiet. Dont accuse me copy pasting if you have no clue.

[DQ]

Read before you comment. If you cant read and cant indulge in a healthy debate, stay away. Dont start such threads in the first place.
I gave you the source of my quotes, refute them if you can. If you cant, accept the fact and keep quiet. Dont accuse me copy pasting if you have no clue.

Whats your problem dude, looks like you are in need of some serious Help. Scroll up and check whose having a Debate and whose Ranting.

A simple question, whats derogatory in the term "Kafir" and you go on and on. tch tch.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Answer the above and we will proceed.

As I said earlier, read my post completely first. Especially my comments after the first two quotes.

As for your quotes, the following is what was in the copy of quran i am reading.

Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.

This is an accusation that some people plotted to invade and kill muslims. Fine. I am not one of them. Then why call me 'kafir' and associate me with those who did tried to expel muhammed?

My question to you, you have proudly stated that you are a non beliver, is this one of your attribute?

Yes, I dont believe in allah. call it whatever you want.

As for the rest of the quotes you posted, I dont mind them as such. Yeah, if I am an unbeliever and indeed allah is the only god then my soul will burn in fire. Thats fine with me as long as some divine power is doing it and there is no human intervention. but no, quran also says this: 008.60, 57, 55, and 17. Thats human intervention.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

A simple question, whats derogatory in the term "Kafir" and you go on and on. tch tch.

I posted a lengthy reply abt whats derogatory abt it and all you said was that its a rant picked from bible.com (wtf?). Is that a debate? not in my book.

[Ar!e$]

wht's all the argument abt..

[Mayavi Morpheus]

wht's all the argument abt..

wahi tho... why call any one unbelievers or anything. call muslims - muslims, hindus- hindus, christians - christians and jews - jews! That would end all debate.

[Ar!e$]

wht's all the argument abt..

wahi tho... why call any one unbelievers or anything. call muslims - muslims, hindus- hindus, christians - christians and jews - jews! That would end all debate.

well ur rt in a way mayavi..why shud b there such topics on the public forum's..there are a variety of ppl over here comming from diff religions ,caste..wht 1 talks can hurt the other's sentiments..so its better not 2 talk abt it..discuss it btwn the ppl who r from the same religion atleast u wuld gt more knowledge and ppl wuld like 2 hear and talk abt it more.

[akhilis2cool]

Theres nothing wrong in talking abt. sensitive topics publically as long as it is within the limits of decency.
DQ and MM have had many discussions before and have maintained a good decorum. I dont see any reason why this thread shd. stop here...

[Sharjeel]

The technical meaning of words sometimes are irrelevant, eg., Nigger, Saala, and many more.

Having lived all my life with more non-muslims than muslims, me can empathise with them, n me wud never call a non-muslim a kafir in front of him, unless he is a very good frend who I know will not get hurt.

Some very good friends call me kata-la##a, an obvious potshot at the fact that muslims are cicumcised. If anyone else called me that, it would be treated as an insult, but not when they say it, even though they sometimes mean it.

Kafir is not bad when the other person understand, and when it is not said as an insult; in most cases it is said as an insult...

[CtrlAltDel]

Having lived all my life with more non-muslims than muslims, me can empathise with them, n me wud never call a non-muslim a kafir in front of him, unless he is a very good frend who I know will not get hurt.

Some very good friends call me kata-la##a, an obvious potshot at the fact that muslims are cicumcised. If anyone else called me that, it would be treated as an insult, but not when they say it, even though they sometimes mean it.

i can understand that. for example, a white calling a black nigger is insulting, but blacks frequently call each other 'nigger' and its not an insult. another example, i tease a close muslim friend by calling him 'ABC' (another reference to circumcision ) and doesnt feel insulted.
i guess it all depends on how its said and who says it

[lonewolf]

The technical meaning of words sometimes are irrelevant, eg., Nigger, Saala, and many more.

Having lived all my life with more non-muslims than muslims, me can empathise with them, n me wud never call a non-muslim a kafir in front of him, unless he is a very good frend who I know will not get hurt.

Some very good friends call me kata-la##a, an obvious potshot at the fact that muslims are cicumcised. If anyone else called me that, it would be treated as an insult, but not when they say it, even though they sometimes mean it.

Kafir is not bad when the other person understand, and when it is not said as an insult; in most cases it is said as an insult...

Exactly! The situation matters.

The other day I was teasing my Arab friends by calling them "kafir", and I sometimes address my closest Arab friend as "nigger". Nobody is ever offended and we laugh all the way.

A few years ago, I overheard this Paki classmate, known for his anti-India views, refer to Hindus as kafir and Indian Muslims as aadhaa-kafir. I wanted to kick his butt, but a few days after that, he got into trouble with something more serious, so I let him slide in his own crap.

[DQ]

Quite right all of you.

That was my query to, whats derogatory there.

Unless MM perceived that I intended to ridicule him, which was not my remotest intention.

MM your query about call Muslims Muslims , Hindu Hindus etc, for heavens sake "Kafir" is not a word used to describe religions, its a general term used for non believers.

Your statement about FU*C* and Love prove your mettle dude. AGAIN "Kafir" is not a slang or slur, if you can differentiate between language and Slur.

About starting the topic, I wanted to clarify your regress in "Walled Off" suspected that it would throw that thread off the topic, which it would looking at the some of the reactions above.

[DQ]

This is an accusation that some people plotted to invade and kill muslims. Fine. I am not one of them. Then why call me 'kafir' and associate me with those who did tried to expel muhammed?

There is no point in discussing "Quran" with you dude.

You have no knowledge of History, forget about history you are not mature enough to quote the full chapter from where you have pulled the exerpts.(Now history with you shows that you tend to pick up complete Articles out of Jurnos and base your opinions on it, why then did you chose to just pick up single lines in this instance?)

And if you are that interested in Quoting Quran, atleast think logically.
The parts of Al Anfal that you have picked up.
Ok you are a Non Believer, but not the one who plotted to KILL, that point forward you need not worry about what it says about those Plotted to kill.

Your selective quote clearly show that you intend to taint and maim, by only highlighting Quotes, with out even bothering to research what you quote.

NOW TO AL ANFAL itself. This is how it starts.

They (the believers) ask you (Muhammad) about the booty captured (from the enemies) during a war. Tell them, "It belongs to God and the Messengers. If you have faith, have fear of God. Settle the disputes among yourselves and obey God and His Messengers." (8:1)


When God is mentioned, the true believers begin to feel fear of Him in their hearts and when His revelations are recited to them their faith strengthens. In God alone do they trust (8:2).

They are steadfast in prayer and spend part of what We have given them for the cause of God (8:3).

It clearly outlines that in the uneventful circumstances of a war, Plundering and Looting is not allowed. Then it goes on to explain the attributes of a beliver.

Now spending in the Cause of God is a vast subject you will have to study quran over and over to understand waht spending in the cause is.

Summary of spending in the cause is in helping the poor, serving humanity.

They feed the destitute, orphans, and captives for the love of God, saying, (8).

"We only feed you for the sake of God and we do not want any reward or thanks from you (9).

We are afraid of our Lord and the bitterly distressful day" (10).